tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post3402355372703018671..comments2023-05-31T10:08:29.018-04:00Comments on Care with the Cure of Souls: A Slight Rant on Current Arguments for CROBJared C. Cramerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15609063385853968259noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-88868728413897548502012-05-18T15:20:39.755-04:002012-05-18T15:20:39.755-04:00(The other good thing about Baptism, of course, is...(The other good thing about Baptism, of course, is that it's "once for all" - and nobody can take it away from you. You are "marked as Christ's own, forever." That's a source of great strength and comfort in a way that Communion is not, IMO.<br /><br />It's a Sacrament (and a rather beautiful one, too, I think), not a barrier....)blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-53070487831537607522012-05-18T15:10:48.434-04:002012-05-18T15:10:48.434-04:00Frog and Toad, here are the questions that get ask...Frog and Toad, here are the questions that get asked of candidates at the time of their Baptism:<br /><br /><i>Question Do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness that rebel against God?<br />Answer I renounce them.<br /><br />Question: Do you renounce the evil powers of this world which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God?<br />Answer: I renounce them.<br /><br />Question: Do you renounce all sinful desires that draw you from the love of God?<br />Answer: I renounce them.<br /><br />Question: Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your Savior?<br />Answer: I do.<br /><br />Question: Do you put your whole trust in his grace and love?<br />Answer: I do.<br /><br />Question: Do you promise to follow and obey him as your Lord?<br />Answer: I do.</i><br /><br />Perhaps it would have been easier for you at the beginning if somebody had explained this to you, rather than allowing you think you had to "understand the doctrine." I mean, it seems to me that anybody who loved Christ could easily understand these questions - and would eagerly respond to them in just the ways given here.<br /><br />Furthermore, at Baptism the whole community vows to help and support the new members of the church in their faith - something that doesn't happen at the Eucharist - so that they don't <i>have</i> to "try to understand the doctrine" on their own, or wander around guessing what the faith is about.<br /><br />Baptism is available to anybody who asks for it (thus, it's not a "closed circuit"), and - very importantly - you have contact with somebody who can answer your questions, and you are brought into the Community, where you will (hopefully) receive some real support in your faith life. You're not left alone to try to figure it out for yourself; the spiritual life can indeed be difficult, and nobody should have to go it alone. <br /><br />This is one very big reason, I suspect - there are many others, in my opinion - that Baptism has always come prior to Communion (as it still does, in fact, in every other part of the church).blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-27373374581338444672012-05-18T13:39:37.584-04:002012-05-18T13:39:37.584-04:00Well, let's just put it this way: if you want ...Well, let's just put it this way: if you want to signal to people that you are a closed circuit and the unchurched are not even welcome to inhabit a ritual as a way of trying to understanding the doctrine, this is a good way. You can come into Christianity VIA the Eucharist, trust me. It was the only part of the whole thing that made any sense to me as a newcomer to both organized religion and to Christianity -- that you share some part of Christ together and that makes you part of him and part of one another. The rest of the discipline, for me and insofar as I have it, followed from that understanding. I'll not be coming to communion this Sunday. Thanks for the uninvite!Frog and Toadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377542172335502858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-39915255392369884412012-05-18T12:43:51.305-04:002012-05-18T12:43:51.305-04:00And given that this is all touched off by how to d...And given that this is all touched off by how to deal with sexual-gender variant people, i.e., lgbtq folk, I might add that I find it insulting to think that I would be included by skirting around the sacrament of incorporation--Baptism. Why would I not receive the same fullness and be expected the same discipline as straight folk?Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17176482447120453890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-9933202482286192962012-05-18T12:41:19.220-04:002012-05-18T12:41:19.220-04:00CWOB or CROB, as you note, as I have noted, and as...CWOB or CROB, as you note, as I have noted, and as Fr Gunter and Dr Olsen have noted, is a serious undermining of how it is we understand that sacraments of Baptism and Communion to relate in respectively incorporating us into Christ and nourishing us on Christ.<br /><br />The irony for me is some of those speaking for this practice claim the inclusiveness of Baptism and by this practice undermine that inclusiveness. And I might add, equate inclusiveness with a vagabond life rather than a life committed to living in and following Jesus Christ. Such commitment is not merely individual, but is personal, meaning that it is grounded in the community of the ekklessia rooted in communion with the Trinity.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17176482447120453890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-62553445230419204822012-05-18T10:10:25.303-04:002012-05-18T10:10:25.303-04:00From your lips to God's ear. Or, as the case m...From your lips to God's ear. Or, as the case may be, from your keyboard to God's feed reader. My hope is in the Holy Spirit (though that is now loaded language in reference to synods and conventions) but my cynicism sees a long rear-guard action. Ah, well. I hear Rome is lovely this time of year.Fr. Aaron Orearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307413808613069253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-45274608193812031992012-05-18T09:41:39.697-04:002012-05-18T09:41:39.697-04:00I'd be honored and delighted for that to be th...I'd be honored and delighted for that to be the Quote of the Week!<br /><br />Take heart, my friend, have no fear. I also have a hunch that God is at work in this whole debate, drawing all of us into deeper truth and deeper relationship.Jared C. Cramerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609063385853968259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-73375904803783838052012-05-18T09:37:50.005-04:002012-05-18T09:37:50.005-04:00"And I have a hunch, just a hunch, that when ..."And I have a hunch, just a hunch, that when Jesus invites people to follow him, he might like it if they actually tried to walk in his path, rather than if they heard the call, smiled and proceeded to wander about on their own. I have a hunch Jesus is interested in disciples."<br /><br />With your kind permission, this will be our Quote of the Week in the parish's next weekly update email. It may even make an appearance in this Sunday's sermon.<br /><br />As for the whole of the post...spot on. I will be watching GC with dread, knowing that whatever ECUSA does the Canadian church is not far behind in copying. It breaks my heart to think of, but if CROB comes north (and it's already practised in a lot of parishes here) I will not be able to continue as a priest in this church - the church that brought me into faith from atheism, the church I dearly love, the church I gave myself to. We will have done away with the last scrap of commitment and expectations, and I simply do not DO relativism. So...watching with dread.Fr. Aaron Orearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08307413808613069253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-76581033636492463132012-05-17T17:47:36.885-04:002012-05-17T17:47:36.885-04:00I've wrestled with this question quite a bit, ...I've wrestled with this question quite a bit, and will consider your points. I particularly like this invitation and may try it out in my parish.<br /><br />Everyone is welcome to come to the altar rail during Holy Communion. If you are not baptized, simply cross your arms over your chest to receive a blessing. If you are baptized, extend your hands for the bread and use a hand to guide the chalice to your lips for the wine. Or, if you prefer, you can intinct (dip) the bread into the wine. If you require a gluten-free wafer, please clasp your hands to indicate such to the minister.<br /><br />I am curious as to how your parish is doing in terms of numerical growth. Have you seen an increase in Sunday morning attendance or financial support since you have been moving in this direction? I know there are many ways to measure "growth"; I'm just curious about the effects of the work you've been doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-16840801777028472352012-05-17T15:42:11.138-04:002012-05-17T15:42:11.138-04:00Dear Edgar,
Thank you for your gracious words.
...Dear Edgar,<br /><br />Thank you for your gracious words. <br /><br />I suppose the real sticking point between our perspectives lies along this line, <br /><br />"I don't think it is fair to suggest that those of us who do practice 'open communion' and thereby violate the canon, do so out of 'dangerous clericalism' or because we put our own personal views above the rest of the church. Surely there is room for conscience and variety of practice in our common life."<br /><br />While I profoundly affirm that there is room for conscience and variety of practice in our common life, I would suggest that in our Anglican ethos the boundaries of that are fixed by our prayer book and by our canons. <br /><br />As you know, deep within our history, our forbears killed one another over liturgical disagreement. Perhaps our tradition is a little more gun-shy of liturgical variety because of that... but personally I am grateful that boundaries are given. <br /><br />I find the Prayer Book itself to be a wonderfully open and permissive document, allowing for a variety of approaches to and expressions of Christian worship. I think that perhaps what gets me about the discussion surrounding CROB is that I sense within its advocates the same view which is all to common in our church this day: the rubrics are unimportant, I'm going to do this the way I think is right.<br /><br />That view, in some ways, concerns me even more than CROB itself.<br /><br />Warmly,<br />Jared+Jared C. Cramerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609063385853968259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-82166906382014250482012-05-17T15:34:38.665-04:002012-05-17T15:34:38.665-04:00Dear Jarod,
Thank you for your very kind reply. Yo...Dear Jarod,<br />Thank you for your very kind reply. You are right, most who oppose CROB in the Episcopal Church do not hold that rigid a view of Baptism and I did not mean to say that is your view. However such a view is not unheard of in the past or even now. One argument I read on this issue recently by another priest said communion is only for the people of God and the people of God are only the baptized. My own view, as I suspect yours may be, is that God's love is broader than that. Similarly however, I don't think it is fair to suggest that those of us who do practice "open communion" and thereby violate the canon, do so out of "dangerous clericalism" or because we put our own personal views above the rest of the church. Surely there is room for conscience and variety of practice in our common life. And I do not think that allowing people to receive communion have not been baptized will mean that that everyone will. In my parish are people who have done it both ways. My experience is that people come into the church and into a deeper relationship with Christ in many ways. There have been numerous changes in the church in the years since I was ordained. Some things I thought were going too far at the time and I felt would change what we believed, so I opposed them. I since have found them to have been blessings. Others that I though were blessings, perhaps wern't. I think there are good people and good arguments on both sides of this and most issues. My hope is that we can listen to one another and allow for the wisdom of tradition and the movement of the Spirit, while still respecting one another consciences. Thank you for your thoughtful thoughts about this and your willingness to listen to those of us who may have a different view.<br />Blessings to you,<br />Edgar +Edgar Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05365048323952316003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-9326927501873268572012-05-17T10:52:48.142-04:002012-05-17T10:52:48.142-04:00(I have to add that if I'd been expected to re...(I have to add that if I'd been expected to respond "Amen" to whatever a priest said to me at the altar - I've seen "instructed Eucharists" aimed at newcomers that say just this - I'd have thought the church was a racket, and would have run the other way as fast as I could.<br /><br />I mean, I know Episcopalians who won't say certain things during the service - "born of the Virgin Mary" for instance - so I wonder how we can expect somebody without any background in the faith at all to respond in the affirmative to the strange things said at the altar during the administration of Communion? <br /><br />I just don't get this whole concept. I don't think mystification is at all a good thing, and to me not explaining anything about what's going on end up being highly manipulative.)blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-81515192813366823172012-05-17T10:48:33.812-04:002012-05-17T10:48:33.812-04:00Dear Edgar,
Unfortunately, with all affection and...Dear Edgar,<br /><br />Unfortunately, with all affection and love, I feel like your argument is doing the same thing I found frustrating in the initial article. It's bringing up false choices and straw men. <br /><br />You say, "I do have concerns about continuing a view of baptism as some sort of 'magical initiation' that separates the saved from the damned, or us from them, or the acceptable from the unacceptable, the worthy from the unworthy, or the people of God from the "rest of the world."<br /><br />In this list you link together several views that are not held by all. Neither I nor other opponents of CROB view baptism as a "magical initiation that separates the saved from the damned" or "the acceptable from the unacceptable." To say we believe that is rather disingenuous.<br /><br />We are all made acceptable only through the grace of God in Christ. And when it comes to who is saved—I would argue strongly that this is not what we are talking about at all. What we are talking about is a particular journey into salvation known as Christianity. To affirm this journey does not have to condemn those who may encounter God in other ways.<br /><br />Furthermore, affirming the normative path of baptism before Eucharist does not mean that exceptions to that journey may exist. Our God is a God who does indeed work by exceptions because our God is great and big and expansive. However, that does not mean the exception should become the normative expression of our life—because that would put people who might indeed be on the normal path heading towards baptism in a place where they are receiving the sacrament before they truly are prepared. <br /><br />And, once again, to oppose CROB does not mean that we believe Jesus withholds himself. Instead, it is to affirm both that seekers may find Jesus in all sorts of venues and also to affirm that Jesus invites people into something real. Baptism is always open to all—not as a barrier but as a symbol and expression of the immense love of God out poured in Christ.<br /><br />Affectionately,<br />Jared+Jared C. Cramerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609063385853968259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-52840625404026166192012-05-17T10:39:54.765-04:002012-05-17T10:39:54.765-04:00Just for the record: when I returned to the churc...Just for the record: when I returned to the church I sat in my seat during Communion for almost two years, exactly because I didn't believe in it.<br /><br />I wish that that parish had offered the choice of a blessing instead - but it didn't; it was Communion or nothing. But a blessing is much more welcoming, to me, than "inviting" people to participate in a rite they don't know anything at all about - not even the simple mechanics of what to do. (As a chalicist, I've seen this happen at the altar rail; people have literally no clue about what they are expected do to. And how could they? No one's bothering to tell them. Are they supposed to say anything? What do they do with the host and the chalice? How can they answer "Amen" to what a priest says to them - when they don't have the first idea of what it might mean?)<br /><br />A blessing is more intimate, too - and is at the same time much more respectful of boundaries, and therefore more appropriate, IMO. <br /><br />I'm sad to say that this is one of the factors that makes me realize I need to find a different church; CROB makes the church <i>less</i> attractive to me, IOW. It essentially makes spiritual growth optional - and the desire for spiritual growth is exactly the reason I returned to the church in the first place. So there's no real reason for me to be here at this point.<br /><br />Don't forget that the catechism of our church says that when we come to Communion "It is required that we should examine our lives, repent of our sins, and be in love and charity with all people." A pretty tall order, in fact - so how can we require it of somebody who's just come in the door? It's difficult enough for the rest of us, wouldn't you say? This is a liturgical means to spiritual growth - which comes at a price, I have to point out, since the the spiritual life is always difficult, even as it's worthwhile. It always involves work, in fact - and most of the work necessarily happens at the level of the inner person. <br /><br />The church ideally offers a life of growth, which involves work and difficulty. CROB is the absolute negation of that idea; it communicates instead that the spiritual life is a snap - anybody can join in anytime, without a bit of preparation or guidance or support. (Just don't forget to say "Amen" to whatever the priest says when you receive the bread and wine! Whether you understand or agree with what's said or not.)<br /><br />And then, it seems a bit of a bait-and-switch, too, to expect people afterwards to join up via Baptism. I'm thinking it's back to the Quakers for me....blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-81657567440242681442012-05-17T10:35:13.490-04:002012-05-17T10:35:13.490-04:00Dear David,
You're right: it is the altar of ...Dear David,<br /><br />You're right: it is the altar of Christ, and like Jared and Matt I am also a mere steward. That being said, stewardship has responsibilities as well as rights. Every time I stand at the altar and say "...take them in remembrance that Christ died for you..." I am issuing an invitation that is both daring and dangerous, one that is loaded with a responsibility that Christians accept by virtue of our baptism and our reaffirmation of the same. I think it is irresponsible for me to invite those who have not willingly made such a commitment into what the sacrament requires. That being said, I unhesitatingly give communion to whoever comes to be fed because it is far worse to embarrass someone or turn them away.<br /><br />I have been a part of this dialogue for awhile now, and one thing that has become painfully obvious to me is that whenever anyone opposed to CROB brings up all the other ways that clergy and congregation can offer radical hospitality, as Jared has done in his rant, we are met with a deafening silence. It is quick, easy, and emotionally gratifying for a cleric to invite everyone to communion, but far more difficult to work with a congregation to increase their own practices of hospitality and to increase our own commitment to walking the catechetical journey to the font with someone who is exploring what it might mean to be a baptized follower of Christ.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />KarenThe Vicar of Pontiachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10140041930998549221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-76600313853487251502012-05-17T10:31:47.856-04:002012-05-17T10:31:47.856-04:00Dear Father,
Through the years I have enjoyed read...Dear Father,<br />Through the years I have enjoyed reading your blog, as well as posts through the SCP, and usually find I agree with you, but I respectfully have to disagree with your position here. In our parish we welcome all to communion, not because we do not believe in the importance of baptism or because we believe communion is just a meal like any other. We do so because we believe that communion is truly Christ's body and blood given for the life of the world... not just to a select few. I take very seriously Jesus words, when he says "Whoever comes to me I shall never turn away." Baptism is our public acceptance of and commitment to the grace that has been freely given to us. I'm certainly not suggesting that Baptism in unimportant for living out the Christian life. The renewed emphasis on Baptism in the 1979 Prayer Book wonderfully emphasizes the ministry and authority of all the faithful, which is certainly a positive development in the the life of the church. But I do have concerns about continuing a view of baptism as some sort of "magical initiation" that separates the saved from the damned, or us from them, or the acceptable from the unacceptable, the worthy from the unworthy, or the people of God from the "rest of the world". Throughout my ministry I have found numerous people who were led to seek baptism because they found Jesus in Holy Communion. For most, I imagine the traditional path of baptism before communion will continue to be the conventional order, but that doesn't mean welcome those who come to the table by another path. Forty years ago, saying "all baptized Christians" are welcome to receive communion was a radical statement. Most Episcopal clergy I knew back then added things like " who believe in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and who regularly receive communion in their own church" or something like that. But everyone most of us knew then was baptized and was a part of some church. So that was a very open invitation. That is not the case now. I just don't imagine Jesus witholds himself from anyone whether Baptized or not. I do hope our General Convention changes this canon.Edgar Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05365048323952316003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-59114366025079169202012-05-17T09:25:01.343-04:002012-05-17T09:25:01.343-04:00Dear David,
I agree with Fr. Cramer here. I would...Dear David,<br /><br />I agree with Fr. Cramer here. I would further suggest that, ironically, it is the practice of ignoring baptism and commitment that turns the Body and Blood into 'private' property. It reflects and reinforces the individualism and consumerism that have such a hold on our society's imagination. And it makes Eucharist a 'private' thing rather than a communal and relational thing.<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />MattMatt Gunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230570081324464033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-55730155542660001422012-05-17T09:03:44.418-04:002012-05-17T09:03:44.418-04:00Dear David,
I would gently suggest that this view...Dear David,<br /><br />I would gently suggest that this view is part of the problem. Who happens to be the celebrant should not be important, because each celebrant should agree to preside according to the norms of the community. Neither Mother Carmichael nor myself are owners of God's altar—we are simply stewards. For one of us to violate the norms of our community and offer the Sacrament to the unbaptized is, I think, the actual presumption.<br /><br />Warmly,<br />Jared+Jared C. Cramerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609063385853968259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-45482375355156039482012-05-17T08:53:57.985-04:002012-05-17T08:53:57.985-04:00If asked to choose if I would attend a Mass celebr...If asked to choose if I would attend a Mass celebrated by you or by Mother Carmichael, I would unhesitatingly choose the latter. Just who appointed you as the owner of God's altar? The Body and Blood of Jesus is no one's private property!Rev. David Justin Lynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00250968772752560668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-10126062707969360132012-05-17T01:49:41.358-04:002012-05-17T01:49:41.358-04:00I must add that I have been in a parish where CROB...I must add that I have been in a parish where CROB was considered by a large majority of parishoners a very obvious praxis of the community (I was the one aghast) but then they also created a "first communion" service for six years old kids (the rationale being that these kids, in a predominant RC environment, would feel deprived of an important celebration). So communion for all regardless of baptism, but the baptized children of the parish playing some sort of walking the treshold (I think some had received communion already).So sometimes it is just confusion?Gianluigi Gugliermettohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09868414060449266929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-38381184166396476612012-05-17T01:41:56.287-04:002012-05-17T01:41:56.287-04:00I am in general agreement with your argument again...I am in general agreement with your argument against CROB, or perhaps I should say that I understand it deeply. Yet I am willing to talk about CROB with its supporters, because they truly fascinate me (and I am not being ironic here). I wonder if they realize that they simply undermine any rationale for baptism (what would it become? a benediction?). I must admit (with some guilt, because I am very attached to the Tradition) that I am fascinated by a Christianity without baptism. It would be indeed a radical new thing, almost unheard of in history. Perhaps we must admit that the attempts of the last few decades about making baptism central to the identity of Christian communities, in many denominations, has failed entirely? Why some people, who got a theological education, do not think it matters? Again, I am not being ironic. I am truly interested in understanding what kind of Christianity they envision. Not through slogans, but in much more detail.Gianluigi Gugliermettohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09868414060449266929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-31771833506102037382012-05-16T23:37:30.895-04:002012-05-16T23:37:30.895-04:00"that alone enables us to embark of on this j..."that alone enables us to embark of on this journey into the life of God." <br /><br />We must invite our guests to take part in this journey....of Baptism and Communion and community. I waffle on this issue and nobody should ever be turned away at the altar. But invitation to seek Baptism first is important.Nancy Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07153647570724711455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-15338682036743272482012-05-16T22:44:27.747-04:002012-05-16T22:44:27.747-04:00...and in the parish I serve as well (All Saints, ......and in the parish I serve as well (All Saints, Pontiac MI).<br /><br />Karen Johanns<br />www.allsaintspontiac.org<br /><br />P.S: Good rant, Father.The Vicar of Pontiachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10140041930998549221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-27866388197205138102012-05-16T20:12:18.178-04:002012-05-16T20:12:18.178-04:00I agree with you 100% and your approach in your pa...I agree with you 100% and your approach in your parish is nearly identical to that which we have adopted in my parish (St. Paul's, Medina, Ohio).<br /><br />Fr. Eric Funston<br />www.stpauls-medina.orgEric Funstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06723581120815649861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5129950151129952290.post-4236922030995840472012-05-16T19:41:08.341-04:002012-05-16T19:41:08.341-04:00Thank you for weighing in on this Fr. Cramer. Good...Thank you for weighing in on this Fr. Cramer. Good observations all around.<br /><br />"This is our construction around this issue because Jesus never said you have to have baptism before you have dinner with me,”<br /><br />That might be true enough as far as it goes. But, it is profoundly myopic. As you point out, it ignores the fact that we do not consider the Eucharist just another meal.<br /><br />It also ignores the fact that everyone Jesus ate with was already part of the covenant people.<br /><br />There is no reason to suppose that Jesus did not accept the particularly Jewish belief that God had chosen and called Israel to bless the nations even as he recalled Israel to that mission and ultimately fulfilled it himself. Nor was his summons to enter the kingdom a generic welcome of any and all regardless of repentance and the embrace of particular commitments (Luke 15:1-10). <br /><br />Jesus’ movement was a Jewish renewal movement. His mission was to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:6, 15:24). His words and actions need to be understood in that context. Whatever symbolic fellowship meals he shared were limited to those already members of the covenant people of Israel. <br /><br />Though Jesus showed interest in and compassion toward Gentiles and hinted at their eventual incorporation, he did not gather them into his movement. As one would expect of an observant Jew of his time, there is no indication that he ever ate with Gentiles - outcaste or otherwise. There is no reason to suppose that the multitude that was fed miraculously was anything other than a Jewish multitude. It was the fragments of Israel that Jesus gathered into the baskets of his movement. <br /><br />http://intotheexpectation.blogspot.com/2009/11/part-ii-inclusion-vs-incorporation.html<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br /><br />Matt GunterMatt Gunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11230570081324464033noreply@blogger.com